Put it on NBC 8:30pm EST

They are showing how everyone gets ripped off and how it is done!!

Sick@!

Good show


for those who missed it

http://www.msnbc.com/news/1001205.asp

It was good...can't wait to see all the questions tomorrow!!!!

I'm sure some of the info presented was correct, but I'm not sure who has worse credibility.....NBC Dateline or auto dealers.

Remember...NBC Dateline was sued for their false reporting of Ford's alledged exploding gas tanks a few years ago. (it was revealed that they purposely rigged the truck to explode in their story).

Any time I see Ralph Nader's endorsement thrown around, I know there is some deceptive reporting going on.

Just a though.

HIdden cameras dont lie.

If you would have seen the whole episode you would understand. The clip they have on the web is too short.

they had a dealership, town and country ford in charlotte NC on the program, they advertise on the radion and t.v all the time I wonder how it will affect their business

bmwguy, you think a car dealer has less baggage than Nader?

These dealers were altering loan applications, overstating income. They also added charges without clearly disclosing them to the buyers. Most of the stuff revealed on the show is actually widely known of; state AGs are just doing little about it. Of course the main cause is that consumers are not doing their homework prior to shopping. The show did have a lot of good advice for consumers. One thing that I always harp on is that if someone is a "payment" sensitive they should buy an inexpensive car (perhaps an older model of the one they want) to keep payments low...not spread payments out. Generally, if you finance for more than 36 months and without a large downpayment you lose big in the long run.

Out of all of the books I have read about dealing with car dealers, Remar Sutton's provided the most useful information. I would really have liked to see them use more of his information on negotiating for a car, but they were only focusing on the illegal and immoral tactics car dealers use.

Ok, I watched the video on the show off their website. Now I didn't see the entire show, just the clip but I have some questions.

I'm alittle confused about the whole thing. She was given a loan for 60 months at 360/mo and then he lowered her payments to 280/mo for 72 months. Did the girl NOT know that the term changed? That is one thing I make sure on a contract is the term and amount and interest rate. When you get a car or anything you sign a contract. Reading the thing is essential to know what you are paying and for how long.

Then it goes on to show how they changed her income from 1k to 1800/month. Now anyone would know if someone TELLS you they are falsifying an application that can be a legal problem. Maybe there are dishonest people out there but SHE went along with it!

Did I miss something or what?

I think that is why so little gets done by local LEA's. Alot of people are willing accomplices in the deception (Of course, not all) and the wonder of video editing, is that you can show angles and seamlessly, literally, place words in people's mouths.
Now, I do know that many dealers are down right dirty, the larger ones, at least in California, must be very careful. The penalties and the chance to lose their surety bond and dealer's license, as well as the potential for the manufacturer to pull their franchise, keeps most larger dealers on the up and up. I have a few friends in management at local major dealers, they are so worried, just about making a legit mistake, that they have alot of eyes to check the paperwork, to make sure the DMV sees everything that is going on. However, the sleazy local car lots, not franchise dealers, ARE THE WORST OFFENDERS.

By the time they are found out by the DMV, which along with the state regulatory agencies, police these people, can't keep up with all of the claims by consumers of ripoffs. Then, if the matter gets to LE, then the matter has been fixed or the dealer has closed shop, after making 10's of thousands of dollars. Only to reopen in another county or state, to start all over.

Caveat Emptor!

I saw the same clip as you and it appeared that the salesman/sales manager did not inform the customer that in order to lower the payment, a longer finance term was required - not a discount to the price of the vehicle. This fact had to be disclosed by the F&I guy when it came time for her to sign the installment contract which would include a Truth in Lending Act (TILA) disclosure outlining all of the terms of the finance contract. Typically by that time, the customer is more than ready to conclude the deal and will have developed selective hearing and even though informed of the longer finance term, may not comprehend this fact until she actually sits down and reads what she signed! Sheesh, 72-month financing on a $20,000 car! The only thing worse are those 1 year no- interest, no-payment deals usually offered by Mitsubishi at the beginning of the year.



From the customers standpoint, the salesman altered the original information that had been written on the finance application, not the custmer. Problem is the customer is not thinking in legal terms since the application will have a legal blurb about the legal implications with regard to the accurateness of the information the customer discloses. Regardless of what data ends up on the application, in a court of law, it is the person who has signed the form who will bear responsibility for the data on the form!


Michael

Here is a great article about this same topic, it takes about an hour to read, but a great education

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/artic...62/article.html

That is a really good article but I think the sites that keep reposting it need to give the author due credit since I think that article was first published at somepoint in 2000.


Michael

I sold cars for two years, up until about a year ago. After watching the clip on the internet, I can say that these things happen all the time at dealerships. I quit selling cars because I wasn't making enough money. Why did I not make $60-80K like some of the other salesmen? I was too honest! I couldn't bring myself to mislead my customers, so many times they went to another dealership, found a salesman who would mislead them by telling them what they wanted to hear, and bought the car.

Consumers need to educate themselves before they shop for vehicles and use common sense to realize that if one dealership quotes a note or price that is much, much lower than another (its called lowballing), or if they the price or note drops drasticly, LOOK OUT.

Dealerships will very rarely lose money on a car deal. (Sometimes they will)

BUT....

Dateline played with the numbers to mislead their veiwers also. Follow their math:

$360 x 60 = $21,600
$280 x 60 = $16,800
Customer though she was saving $4800

$280 x 60 = $16,800
$280 x 72 = $20,160
Dateline claims she paid $3360 more. "The actual price of the car didn't change at all."-Dateline

Here is the real math.

Note was $360 x 60 mth = $21,600
Lowered note to $280 x 72 mth = $20,160
Customer saved $1440 when the note was lowered. Also there will be more interest on a 72 month loan versus a 60 month loan, so the price of the car droped $1500 to $2000.

Just my observations.

I watched it and about shit my pants!

Regardless of what data ends up on the application, in a court of law, it is the person who has signed the form who will bear responsibility for the data on the form!


True, so why sign something WITHOUT reading it! Whenever I sign a contract I read EVERY thing on it. Even the fine print so I know what I am agreeing to. When you buy a car it's BUYER BEWARE....know the facts and don't buy too quickly. Maybe that has been why all my car deals have been really smooth and I've had no troubles. I will walk out if they don't give me a reasonable offer that I understand completely.

And as for the terms....that is also on the contract. Before taking a pen and signing it READ IT...!!!! It's not rocket science, just good plan common sense.

I SOLD cars for 5 years...never made less than 100K, but i didn't have to Lie to my customer to sell a car...Now don't get me wrong Buyers as they say "are liers" which most are....you do have to agree with there BS and play the GAME sometimes.....my point is you do not have to LIE to make money and sell cars in the CAR BUSINESS.

Now as for the program...almost dead on target.....they really should have said how if it were not for F&I PROFIT in car deals how the car business would not be IN BUSINESS....the deal profit has been cut so much by (edcuated customers) that without the RESERVE banks pay deals you would be buying cars from the factories...now who really wants to do that..no trade ins..haggling...no REBATES...no in house financing...and no DEALERSHIP to sue if your USED car breaks down.....people NEED dealerships and dealerships NEED people.

Thanks F and I for the insight (Once again!). I thought the show was right on too. Also, if it weren't for parts and service, I know alot of dealerships that would be out of business as well.
I like what you said about the Customer's lie's. I'm sure half of the F and I job, besides upsell and the actual contracts and loans, is reading throught the bullshit people try to tell you and the salesperson, regarding their DTI, or their income in general...

I just found what I consider to be a bombshell.

I recently bought a car, as some of you may remember me talking about. I had said that I signed a finance contract, agreeing to terms of 18.9 percent through what appeared to be Western General, I believe. However, after the dealer "shopped me around" for a week or so, they were unable to find me financing, and American Honda Finance picked up the contract 'cause the finance guy called me back and told me he was able to lower my interest rate. My new contract was down at 9.44%, which was great, however, I just found this after going over some stuff related to the CNBC report and links I found associated with it on the net...

http://www.citizen.org/documents/Rip-Off_r...report_only.pdf

If you scroll down to page 12 of 21, you'll see that it specifically states that customers can not be allowed to sign forms agreeing to bank terms that are not generated by a bank.

This may be why they were so low with terms from American Honda Finance, 'cause they had no way of collecting on behalf of and representing Western General.